Would you consider this as Theft or Fraud?

Mistake was done by bank, but they bank the money to you. You assume that its yrs and make a transfer out and its in your account. So, is this theft?

----



'Runaway millionaire' arrested in NZ

WELLINGTON - A WOMAN who allegedly fled New Zealand with
her Chinese partner after a bank mistakenly deposited millions of
dollars into his account was arrested on Friday, police said.

Kara Hurring and Hui (Leo) Gao left for China shortly after
Westpac bank accidentally placed NZ$10 million (S$9.6 million) into
Gao's account in April 2009. Gao had requested a NZ$100,000 dollar
overdraft.

The error was discovered within days but by then some
NZ$6.78 million had allegedly been transferred into other accounts and
the pair had left the country.

Police met and arrested 31-year-old Hurring at Auckland airport early on Friday after she voluntarily returned to New Zealand.

'Obviously this is an extremely positive development in the
case, however, the investigation is by no means over,' said Senior
Sergeant Mark Loper, the detective in charge of the police
investigation.

'Our focus remains on eventually being able to speak to Leo
Gao on this matter.' Police said about half the money had been recovered
but some NZ$3,872,000 was still missing and Hurring would face theft
and money laundering charges. -- AFP

You know its not yours.
You know somebody made a mistake.
Knowing its not yours and still intentionally withdrawing it even if its in your account still constitute a felony.
It fell into the category of stealing something which doesn't belongs to you.

I agreed with Titu.....

Spiderman wrote:

You know its not yours.
You know somebody made a mistake.
Knowing its not yours and still intentionally withdrawing it even if its in your account still constitute a felony.
It fell into the category of stealing something which doesn't belongs to you.

Doesnt the account belongs to you? From my view, my account is my asset and in which it registered to me. Hence, any contents in the asset is belong to me.

From an analogy - It like a house, which is my asset eventhough its leased or morgaged. Then UL come over and placed 1m there, in which i later found the sum of money. I didnt steal it, it is located in a property registered my name. When I keep it, is it consider stealing from UL?

" Knowing its not yours and still intentionally withdrawing it even if its in your account still constitute a felony.
It fell into the category of stealing something which doesn't belongs to you."

This statement says it all KK.

" Doesnt the account belongs to you? From my view, my account is my asset and in which it registered to me. Hence, any contents in the asset is belong to me. "

Suddenly one day your acct ballooned with $10 mio. Can you proved to the authorities where your money came from if you withdrew it?? If you can't proved where it came from legitimately, you can have free food from the authorities for a certain duration with compliments from the State.

Well said bro tituman!

Another simple example is that UL drop his wallet at your home. U use his cash, use his credit card to make online purchase knowing that all these thing does not belong to u.

No offense at all just because the wallet drops in your house?

Think it over...KK!

So, does this means if a bank sudden banks more $$$ in yr account and you dont know where it came from...if you unknowingly spends it...its a fraud.

How about when yr company wrongly banks in more $$$ to your banks account. You dont want to return it, is it fraud?

Daffu wrote:

So, does this means if a bank sudden banks more $$$ in yr account and you dont know where it came from...if you unknowingly spends it...its a fraud.

How about when yr company wrongly banks in more $$$ to your banks account. You dont want to return it, is it fraud?

In criminal terms, we talked about wrongful gain, wrongful loss n intention.

When u receive more money than u sld, there is a wrongful gain (yourself) n wrongful loss (bank).

Intention: u spend it unknowingly or on purpose? how do u prove it's unknowingly to the authorities?

I'm sure any normal person will check with the bank immediately if they found some unknown money credit into their own account esp. when we are talking abt huge sum of money.

btw the two examples given by u is not considered as fraud. It sld be Criminal misappropriation of property (correct me if i'm wrong).

Ref: http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_getdata.pl?actno=1872-REVED-224&doctitle=PENAL%20CODE%0A&date=latest&method=part&segid=888373002-002619

Seiko wrote:

Daffu wrote:

So, does this means if a bank sudden banks more $$$ in yr account and you dont know where it came from...if you unknowingly spends it...its a fraud.

How about when yr company wrongly banks in more $$$ to your banks account. You dont want to return it, is it fraud?

In criminal terms, we talked about wrongful gain, wrongful loss n intention.

When u receive more money than u sld, there is a wrongful gain (yourself) n wrongful loss (bank).

Intention: u spend it unknowingly or on purpose? how do u prove it's unknowingly to the authorities?

I'm sure any normal person will check with the bank immediately if they found some unknown money credit into their own account esp. when we are talking abt huge sum of money.

btw the two examples given by u is not considered as fraud. It sld be Criminal misappropriation of property (correct me if i'm wrong).

Ref: http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_getdata.pl?actno=1872-REVED-224&doctitle=PENAL%20CODE%0A&date=latest&method=part&segid=888373002-002619

Oh ...incidentally, if you suddenly come about with $10 mio in your bank acct and don't have a reasonable explanation where it came from, but lets say it is yours from someone but you refused to reveal to the police who is it, you will still end up in jail. WHY???? The word here is MONEY LAUNDERING !!!!
Ok when your acct suddenly balloon with a couple of million, do you know that the bank have to report to MAS (monetary Authority Of Singapore) about this money? MAS will investigate if you are laundering this money for some drug lord or something. If the bank don't report or missed reporting it, they will be penalized by MAS and will face a big fine. If it is legitimate, then you are safe. Sorry i worked in the bank before, many many moons ago.

titu

Can't believed you guys still at it !!! Tomorrow in school, i will check with my student a lawyer and high court judge.....meantime please channel your focus for next week RDG Annual game !

Seiko wrote:

Daffu wrote:

So, does this means if a bank sudden banks more $$$ in yr account and you dont know where it came from...if you unknowingly spends it...its a fraud.

How about when yr company wrongly banks in more $$$ to your banks account. You dont want to return it, is it fraud?

In criminal terms, we talked about wrongful gain, wrongful loss n intention.

When u receive more money than u sld, there is a wrongful gain (yourself) n wrongful loss (bank).

Intention: u spend it unknowingly or on purpose? how do u prove it's unknowingly to the authorities?

I'm sure any normal person will check with the bank immediately if they found some unknown money credit into their own account esp. when we are talking abt huge sum of money.

btw the two examples given by u is not considered as fraud. It sld be Criminal misappropriation of property (correct me if i'm wrong).

Ref: http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_getdata.pl?actno=1872-REVED-224&doctitle=PENAL%20CODE%0A&date=latest&method=part&segid=888373002-002619

Well said bro. You are still not rusty. In Singapore, this will be known as Criminal misappropriation of property.

Please allow me to explain further on this.

In Singapore, we are using the system known as "Penal Code" and the System used in NZ is known as the "English Legal System"

Both are pretty different as NZ uses a panel of judges and go through case studies/previous charges to finalise a case. Whereas in Singapore, we use "Sections & Chapters"

For this Criminal Misappropriation of Property incident, it would be under Section 403 - Chapter 224 under the Penal Code.

So as long as it doesn't belongs to you and you have taken or used it, it will fall under S403-C224. (Be it whether it is in your house or not)

There isn't such thing as "Finders keepers, Losers weepers" in Singapore. If it is not yours, it is NOT yours!

And if you want to debate on the fact that you "do not" know, you will still however be arrested to explain yourself. The judge or the AG will then decide on the explainations you have and make a verdict.

Wow, I am extremely impressed with the quality reply given. Indeed, without a doubt we have well learned and knowledgeable golfers. I am learning something new today.

On the second question that I posted with regards to company banking in additional $$$ in employee account. My wife's old company used to have a bit of a payroll issue, on & off there will be wrong payroll calculation resulting additional $$$ being banked into the accounts. I was wondering if the staff refusal to return the money, would it be criminal misappropriatio?.

Daffu wrote:

Wow, I am extremely impressed with the quality reply given. Indeed, without a doubt we have well learned and knowledgeable golfers. I am learning something new today.

On the second question that I posted with regards to company banking in additional $$$ in employee account. My wife's old company used to have a bit of a payroll issue, on & off there will be wrong payroll calculation resulting additional $$$ being banked into the accounts. I was wondering if the staff refusal to return the money, would it be criminal misappropriatio?.

For this example, it will not be under Criminal Misappropriation. This fall under the employer and employee situation whereby it becomes civil. It is the bank's negligence to payout more to their staff. This will not be a case of Theft, Criminal Breach of Trust nor anything else.

What the bank can do is deduct what is given (extra) to the staff on his/her next payday. But if there isn't a next payout for the staff (if the staff resigns right after receiving the extra), the bank can then lodge a civil suit against the ex-staff. If the amount isn't much, I don't think the bank would want to go into so much trouble but keep pestering and pestering.

Daffu wrote:

Spiderman wrote:

You know its not yours.
You know somebody made a mistake.
Knowing its not yours and still intentionally withdrawing it even if its in your account still constitute a felony.
It fell into the category of stealing something which doesn't belongs to you.

Doesnt the account belongs to you? From my view, my account is my asset and in which it registered to me. Hence, any contents in the asset is belong to me.

From an analogy - It like a house, which is my asset eventhough its leased or morgaged. Then UL come over and placed 1m there, in which i later found the sum of money. I didnt steal it, it is located in a property registered my name. When I keep it, is it consider stealing from UL?

Let's put it in another perspective.... If UL drop his money in your house, it become yours.... Then Can I throw fire into your house and it also become yours? Then I am free to go.....

Neutralgolfer wrote:

Daffu wrote:

Spiderman wrote:

You know its not yours.
You know somebody made a mistake.
Knowing its not yours and still intentionally withdrawing it even if its in your account still constitute a felony.
It fell into the category of stealing something which doesn't belongs to you.

Doesnt the account belongs to you? From my view, my account is my asset and in which it registered to me. Hence, any contents in the asset is belong to me.

From an analogy - It like a house, which is my asset eventhough its leased or morgaged. Then UL come over and placed 1m there, in which i later found the sum of money. I didnt steal it, it is located in a property registered my name. When I keep it, is it consider stealing from UL?

Let's put it in another perspective.... If UL drop his money in your house, it become yours.... Then Can I throw fire into your house and it also become yours? Then I am free to go.....

Nice one.

Neutralgolfer wrote:

Let's put it in another perspective.... If UL drop his money in your house, it become yours.... Then Can I throw fire into your house and it also become yours? Then I am free to go.....

Yes, you can throw fire into his house and free to go provided you don't get caught. Also note that since the fire belongs to you, he has to return it to you who is the rightful owner.

Nutty, yr avatar ask me to keep quiet.... I will wont tell anyone.... ZIPPPPP....Yes Sora Aoi....